Listen to BA Bake Club's Podcast on Plum Karpatka (Polish Cream Puff Cake)

For the past six years, senior Test Kitchen editor Jesse Szewyczk has been trying to get a karpatka recipe published. Even though he’d never made one in its entirety before. But he knew BA’s Bake Club was the perfect place to showcase what he calls the drag queen of Polish desserts. “I’ve made every component before,” Jesse tells his cohost Shilpa Uskokovic. “I just haven’t arranged the puzzle pieces in this fashion.” “We hope that that's what people in Bake Club take away,” Shilpa adds. “That by having these building blocks, you can make all these things, even if they’re the first time you’re making them.” Jesse’s version has an American twist (a no-bake cheesecake filling) and a nod to his Polish roots (the plum compote). Listeners also weighed in with questions about and photos of their sky-high desserts, and we awarded our Baker of the Month. We also had a visit from a beloved star baker in The Great British Baking Show (a.k.a. Bake-Off for those in the UK). Season nine finalist Ruby Bhogal stopped by the podcast to talk about her new book Around the World in 80 Cakes. And yes, there is a karpatka in it! Find Ruby Bhogal @rubybhogal and on Substack. Shilpa Uskokovic: I'm Shilpa Uskokovic. Jesse Szewczyk: And I'm Jesse Szewczyk. SU: We're both senior test kitchen editors at Bon Appétit. JS: And this is BA Bake Club. SU: Bake Club is Bon Appétit's community of confident and curious bakers. JS: We're creating the nerdiest and most wholesome corner of the baking internet. SU: Every month, we publish a recipe on bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept that we think you should know. JS: Then you'll go bake, and you can send us any questions you have or pictures of your finished creations. SU: And we get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe. JS: The September Bake Club recipe for glazed apple pie fritters is live now on bonappetit.com, and we'll tell you a bit more about those at the end of the episode. SU: But today, today we're diving into Jesse's Polish roots with his recipe for a Plum Karpatka. JS: Listen, I've been pitching of Karpatka for years. SU: You have? JS: Okay, I'm going to be real. I didn't grow up eating Karpatka. And we'll explain to you what this is. I feel like I'm building suspense here. SU: Yes. JS: But it's this Polish cake that I stumbled across several years ago, and I was like, "This is cool." SU: How do you describe it in your text? I love the phrase that you use. JS: Oh, and they let me keep it. I called it the drag queen of Polish desserts because it's just big, boisterous, and kind of silly. SU: Showy. JS: Yeah. SU: It's a lovely dessert. JS: Thank you. SU: And you gave it a really nice ... In a way, it was almost like a very New York spin with a cheesecake. JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. SU: That's the whole thing. Okay. The photos that our Bake Clubbers have sent in of the Karpatka have been absolutely incredible. JS: They're big. Yeah. SU: I feel like there were a lot of skills that came together in this one from past Bake Club bakes. JS: Yeah. Those of you who have been around for a while, we did a Paris-Brest, which is this big kind of tire of choux that you fill with a sweet filling. SU: And for those who are listening, it's choux, as in choux pastry. JS: Choux paste, yes. SU: Okay. Sorry, Jesse. Didn't mean to cut you off. JS: Not the gym shoes, a big tire of choux. And that was a traditional way to cook pâte à choux, you can make cream puffs, éclairs. And this is baking choux in a cake pan, which I feel like is a very unique way to bake it. So, it's like building upon that foundation we learned several months back to create something completely different. SU: I love that you did that, because that's what baking is about. It's like these few things that you have, and then you re-spin it in different directions. Okay. Before we go any further, let's take a moment to get a brief step-by-step tour of this recipe. Okay? And for that, we're going to need our jaunty Bake Club music. Here it is. Okay. Jesse, walk us through this recipe. JS: Yeah, and buckle up because it's a challenge. Not hard, but it takes some effort. Okay, let's start. SU: Sure. JS: So, you're first going to start by making plum compote, and that's very easy. You just cook some plums with sugar and salt. And then when that's nice and thick, you're just going to finish it with some lemon zest juice and some vanilla, and that's your jam. So, make sure you cool that though, because it'd be warm, you need it to be nice and cool and thick. So, as that's cooling, you're going to make your pâte à choux, which we might be familiar with. So, you're going to bring a stick of butter, cut into little pieces, some sugar, some salt, and water to a simmer. And with simmering, you're going to add some flour, and then cook that into this thick doughy paste, and then take that out, let it cool for a while, and then you're going to whip that in a mixer with some eggs. Divide that between two cake bands and bake them, and then watch as they dramatically turn into these giant wonky discs. So, cool your discs, and as those are cooling, you can work on your filling. So, this is like a no-bake cheesecake. So, you're going to start by blooming some gelatin in some cold water, let that sit, then heat up just a tiny bit of cream, pour that over that, so it dissolves the gelatin. And then, to that, you're going to add some cream cheese, some powdered sugar, some vanilla, some salt, and then you're going to beat that all together while adding some more heavy cream to kind of lighten it. And then that's your filling. So, you can assemble everything at this point. So, those two choux puff discs you have, you keep one in a cake pan, and then you put your filling in, you swirl it with the jam, put the other on top like a sandwich, let it sit overnight, and it sets into this beautiful Karpatka. And that's that. SU: The drag queen of Polish desserts. JS: The drag queen, that's how the drag queen gets her beat on, the full beat. SU: Have you ever made Karpatka before this? JS: I'm being called out, and the answer is honestly no. SU: I love that. JS: So, this was a learning experience for us all. SU: Yes. JS: Yeah, and it was really fun. SU: I want to get philosophical here and be like, just because we've never made something before doesn't mean we don't have the authority to make it. Do you know? JS: Well, I've made every component. SU: Exactly. JS: I just haven't arranged the puzzle pieces in this fashion. SU: Exactly. JS: Yes. SU: And we hope that that's what people in Bake Club, our members, take away, that by having these building blocks, you can make all these things, even if they're the first time you're making them. JS: Shilpa, that's beautiful. SU: Thank you. Okay. What occasion do people ... Well, it's a cake. You can eat it at any time. But traditionally, I wonder when a Karpatka is usually served and eaten. JS: I think traditionally in Polish culture, it's for holidays, like Easter, Christmas, and I guess this was my summer version. The flirty summer version of a Karpatka. SU: And I think something, the Easter connection, I'm thinking about ... My husband is Serbian, and they do- JS: Yeah, my husband. SU: And they also have a lot of choux-based pastries, especially around- JS: Like what? SU: They have something called a Princes Krofne, which is éclairs. JS: Sure. SU: Actually, they're cream puffs, to be honest, but no chocolate top. I'm not sure why they call it Princes Krofne, but they are. But I think Easter and Christmas, especially Easter, I think it's after that fasting period, and then you're able to use all these rich ingredients like eggs, which the defining factor of choux, I think, is how many eggs there are in the pastry. JS: Yeah, it's like eggy. It's like doughy, eggy in a nice way, like custardy. SU: Yeah. JS: Yeah. SU: Okay. So, I want to talk more about the pâte à choux, because it is really deeply fascinating. But let's start with the first component that you named, which is the compote. Why did you decide to go with plums? JS: Well, a few reasons. I guess you can kind of use any jam you want. If you want cheap, you can buy a thing of jam, that's fine. But I was thinking, "Oh, what is a late summer produce?" Because it's not quite the peak of summer anymore, nor is it cold weather. And I feel like stone fruit is kind of that transitional fruit, but also plums are very traditional in Polish cuisine and baking. In American culture, we have all these sayings about apples, like, "An apple a day keeps the doctor away," or, "A good apple," or various things. The Polish equivalent is plums. There's all these different sayings about plums, and it's just ... And also, when you use red plums and you make a compote, that color is crazy saturated. SU: Yes, it's very dramatic. JS: It stains your hand saturated, and I thought that would just be stunning. And I don't know, stone fruit's so underrated. Yeah. So, I really wanted to give it a moment. SU: How chunky do you like your compote? JS: Nah. SU: Not at all? JS: A little bit. SU: Yeah. Does it matter for the Karpatka, how chunky it is? Can people leave it a bit chunkier, or make it a bit smoother? JS: They can leave it chunky, but just make sure you cook it down enough that it's not wet, because you want it to thicken up enough that it doesn't seep out. SU: So, you want to dry enough moisture, so when you slice it, it doesn't just weep all over. JS: Yeah. SU: It's thick and jammy. JS: So, if you're able to keep chunks while cooking it out, that's cool. SU: Sure. JS: But I think it might be hard. SU: Got it. JS: Yeah, yeah. SU: And plums are pretty high in pectin. JS: They are, yeah. SU: They make a good jam. JS: Yeah. When it's warm, it can feel a bit loose, but then after overnight in the fridge, it does thicken up quite a bit. Yeah. SU: Is that your recommended amount of chill time for the compote? Can anybody chill it for less and still manage to get away with it? JS: I think you could. If you chill it for an hour, and it's a shallow metal bowl, you're fine. Also, you can, if you're in a rush, which I was many times making this, I'll put it on a sheet tray, so it's a very thin layer, and then that chills in, I don't know, 20 minutes. SU: Smart. JS: Yeah. SU: So, you just don't want it to be so warm that it will melt like the cheesecake filling. That's all we're trying to do, really? JS: Yeah. SU: Okay. JS: Yeah, pretty much. SU: Okay. Okay, that's great. Okay. We'll move on to the second component, which is our star. JS: The choux. SU: The choux. I remember this is when you had a bit of a eureka moment. JS: Yeah. I mean, honestly, looking back, I'm like, maybe I'm stupid, but- SU: Stop. Don't say that about yourself. JS: Okay. I'm sorry. SU: Apologize to Jesse, my friend. JS: Okay, let's move on. So, okay. When you make choux, you bring your water to a simmer with your butter, and then, in that, you can add salt and sugar if you want, and then you add your flour, and you cook it in the pan till it kind of sticks. And then, that glob, you mix with eggs, and people mix it by hand. They just add the eggs. Sometimes they even crack the eggs right in the pan once it's cooled a bit. Some people do it in a mixer, and I thought that incorporating the eggs was just mixing them in. That's that. The first couple tests, it got some nice height, sure. But then, one day, I'm like, "I'm just going to mix it crazy. When I add the eggs, I'm going to put it on high, and I'm going to let it go for five full minutes." I could tell that the batter was aerated. It felt and looked different. Then I baked it, and it was like- SU: Dramatic. JS: It was like a hat. SU: Yeah, it was. JS: It was like a little gnome hat. It puffed so much. I'm like, "That's it." So, just you need to literally mix the shit out of your choux, and incorporate that air physically, mechanically, and it's going to expand and give you two times the puff. SU: Does it matter if you use a stand mixer versus a hand mixer? JS: I don't think so. I think the stand mixer probably works better in this case, but you could use both. SU: Yeah. The trick is to just keep going. JS: Just keep going. SU: With the crap out of it. JS: Yeah. So, you get a lot of air incorporated in there, which makes sense because it's egg-based. SU: Yeah, and the egg is trapping all that air. JS: Yeah. So, it was really fun though to watch it expand. I remember some, we'll get to this later, but someone was like, "Oh, because it expanded too much." I'm like, "No such thing." SU: Yeah. JS: Yeah. SU: And then how ... Because choux, in many ways, is a very unique sort of dough. You're really cooking, you're pre-cooking the flour into this weird, as you said, glob. JS: Yeah. SU: How do you know when it's ready to come off the heat? JS: Sure. For me, when I'm cooking this dough, when I see a very thin kind of ... They say film, I guess is the word, a thin film start to develop on your pan, that's a good sign typically that you've cooked it long enough. SU: Oh, got it. JS: Yeah. SU: Because there's enough moisture, I guess, gone, so it starts sticking to the bottom. JS: Yeah. I think it's, at that point, the starches are pre-gelatinized and you're good to go. SU: Sure. JS: Yeah. SU: Okay. So, you make a choux, and you said one of the secrets to getting a really dramatic puff is to really beat it aggressively. JS: Yes. SU: Then you're putting it in the oven, and this you bake it in two cake pans. JS: Yes. SU: Which unlike your Paris-Brest, which you bake on a sheet tray. JS: Yeah, like freeform. SU: How do you get these two discs out of the pan? Is it easy to flip out of the pan? JS: Yeah, because you have a parchment round in the bottom of each one, so getting them out is not the hard part. I would actually say that getting the batter in the pan is slightly difficult because it's very sticky, and it's lined with parchment, so it moves around. I would suggest taking a little bit of your choux and making little blobs, and then use- SU: Goo dots. JS: Goo dots, and then gluing your parchment down, and then smearing the choux on top. SU: Got it. JS: And if it's not perfect, it's fine because I found, say, it's uneven, it kind of just adds to the uneven whimsy texture that you're going to get. So, you don't have to be too precious. SU: And what about greasing the sides of the pan? Do we have to- JS: No. SU: Got it. JS: Nope. SU: Not at all. JS: I learned that the hard way. It's kind of like a souffle, when it needs to climb on something, like the sugar. I think that greasing the sides made it too slippery, and it didn't want to expand upward. Yes. SU: Can we extend the same logic to the pan, if somebody uses a non-stick pan? JS: I would not recommend a non-stick cake pan here. I think it would ultimately be fine, but I think, for the best results, I would avoid. SU: Yeah, just use a regular aluminum pan. JS: Exactly. SU: The thing is we learn. JS: I know. A lot of strange nuance here. SU: Okay. Jesse, obviously, it wouldn't be a Bake Club recipe without a little twist, and this one comes in the form of one of my favorites. JS: Something we never use here. SU: Philadelphia, where are you at? JS: Yeah. It's not instant pudding this time. It's cream cheese. SU: It's cream cheese. Okay. Tell me how you ended up with cream cheese as your Karpatka filling. JS: Yes. So, this breaks away from traditional Karpatka construction. So, Karpatka, typically, is filled with something a bit less stable, like a creme mousseline, or a pastry cream that's lightened with whipped cream or stuff. And I started there. I did. And when we cut into it, it proved perhaps too ephemeral. It died quite quickly. It weeps. That's just kind of the nature of Karpatka. It is what it is. And Hannah, our deputy food editor, suggested stabilizing it with some cream cheese. And then, I kind of went, "What if it's just cheesecake?" Because cheesecake is so stable. And then, additionally, what if we reinforce that with gelatin, so this dessert became something you can set out for several hours, not worry about it weeping, put it in the fridge, eat it the next day, and it's just our riff on Karpatka. And also, I don't know, my last name, Szewczyk, I can get away with riffing on Karpatka. SU: Yeah, you can. JS: I have permission, right? SU: I remember that each step, where it was like you made this whipped cream filling, and then you said, "Okay, let's use something stable." It's exactly what you said, and then you do the cream cheese. But I remember you made a version without any gelatin, because you were really trying to just be as simple as possible, and make this cheesecake. JS: It was good. SU: It was good. JS: It just didn't last. It would very, very slowly start to just lose its structure. SU: Didn't give you that clean slice that you got with. JS: Yeah, it wasn't a clean slice, and that made me sad. SU: Do you have any tips or advice? I know you use in this one, you used powdered gelatin, as opposed to sheet gelatin. JS: Yes. SU: I think you and me both love sheet gelatin much more than powdered gelatin. JS: It's a little different. Yeah. SU: Yeah. It's not that easy to find. At least in North America, it's not that easy to find. JS: You can't get it in grocery stores. SU: Yes. JS: Yeah, you can only get powder. SU: Are there any tips or tricks when it comes to working with gelatin? JS: Just make sure that once you bloom it, that it's completely melted. For this recipe, I think I took half a cup of my heavy cream, and I heated it up to pour over the bloom gelatin. And at that point, I'd just say, "Give it a few minutes to make sure it really has melted into that cream, because if you rush it, you can get little specks of rubbery gelatin." SU: Yeah. JS: Yeah. Do you have tips? SU: I think blooming in cold water is essential. JS: Yes. SU: I remember making that mistake when I was very young, not with gelatin, but with cornstarch. I was trying to dissolve corn starch with hot water, not realizing- JS: You made like oobleck? SU: Yes. So, the same thing can happen with gelatin when you put it in hot water. It sort of forms these lumps that never quite dissolve. JS: Yeah. They become hard almost, like a gummy candy, with no redeeming qualities. SU: Yes. So, bloom in cold water, and then what Jesse said, make sure it's fully dissolved- JS: I endorse. SU: ... before you move on. And then we assemble this Karpatka. JS: Okay. The assembly, actually, I feel like is perhaps not the trickiest part, but you kind of need- SU: Confidence. JS: Yes. So, keep one of your choux discs in the cake pan. SU: That it was baked in? JS: Yes. SU: Okay. JS: And then take a piece of parchment, and you're going to make a collar around it. When you see the videos of Milk Bar making their cake, they have that clear collar, and they build the cakes upward. So, you're essentially making that with parchment. So, in this collar, you're going to add your cream mixture, and then with dollops of your jam, and you're kind of going to loosely swirl them together, and just keep adding and building until they're both used up. And then you're going to put the other choux, you're going to take it out of this cake pan and put on top, like a hat, and kind of press down just a little bit, so snug, and then put it in the fridge for at least eight hours, because gelatin does take a while to set. SU: Yes. JS: You can't rush gelatin. The cream cheese might set, but the gelatin is not going to be set. So, eight hours, just leave it overnight. And at that point, you have this set Karpatka, and it's going to feel scary taking it out, but it's hefty. It's set. It can handle this. SU: Okay. Got it. JS: So, peel the collar off. SU: While everything is still in the pan? JS: Yes. SU: Okay. JS: And then put your hand on top. SU: Okay. JS: And then confidently, in one swift motion, flip it out. SU: Got it. JS: And nothing's going to happen. It's going to be fine. SU: Got it. JS: And that's that, put powdered sugar on top, and it's done. SU: Okay, okay. So, you put a plate on top. JS: I just use my hand. SU: You do? JS: Yeah. It really- SU: You do it from your hand? You then transfer it onto a plate? JS: Yes. SU: Oh my God. I didn't know this. JS: Yeah. If you want, you could use a plate if you want. That's fine. That's a little maybe more proper. SU: But you're saying it's sturdy enough to- JS: It really is. SU: ... to go through this. Wow. JS: It really is. SU: That little bit of gelatin really did a lot. JS: Yeah, surprisingly so. So, just flip it out. SU: Yeah. JS: Yeah. I think, a lot of times, Karpatkas are made in a springform pan. SU: Oh, got it. JS: But I didn't want to be like, "Use two cake pans, then use another cake pan." So, if you have a springform, you can assemble it in there, and it probably would be a little less scary. So, you do you. SU: Yeah. JS: Yeah. SU: These are the things we think about at Bake Club. JS: Yeah. Am I making it easier or harder? I'm not sure. SU: Easier. JS: I hope so. SU: We love this recipe. It was very dramatic. JS: It's very fun. It's dramatic. SU: Yes. JS: Yeah. It's silly. SU: I want you to talk about your final swipe around the sides of the pan. JS: Oh, sure, sure. SU: Around the sides of the cake, I beg your pardon, because, I think, in many ways, that really sort of brings it to life. JS: Yeah. When I have it on the plate, before I dust it, I take an offset, or you could use anything flat, like a bench scraper. Yeah. And I go around just holding it on the outside, and it smooths the sides, but it also bleeds the red into the white, in this very painterly quality, that makes it very romantic. SU: Yeah. JS: You don't have to do this, but you should. SU: It makes a big difference. It's the simplest thing, but every time Jesse did it in the test kitchen, we would all be like, "Oh my God." It was, each time, we were amazed in you. JS: Yeah, it's like a little styling of your Karpatka. SU: Yeah. JS: And it's worth it. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. SU: When we get back, we'll answer some listener questions about Jesse's Plum Karpatka. JS: Welcome back to BA Bake Club. SU: Jesse, are you ready for some listener questions? JS: I'm ready. SU: Okay. We have a question about the compote from Mark D. He writes to us on our Substack saying, "This was an absolutely majestic bake and so delicious. The no-bake cheesecake seemed to set really well and was super creamy. It made for a really yummy breakfast this morning. A couple of questions. I had a lot of the plum jam leftover," and Mark sends us a picture, "But we'll freeze it for future use. While it was fairly thick and jammy, I'm not sure I reduced it enough and was concerned adding too much into the cheesecake would prevent it from setting. How much jam was the recipe supposed to yield? Thank you for this recipe and challenge. I will definitely make it again. It's a showstopper. Here are pictures of my process putting it together." And Mark sends us a beautiful little grid of six photos. JS: Mark's Karpatka looks so good. SU: It looks so good. He got a really dramatic top hat. JS: Yeah, it's crazy wonky and big. SU: And in the picture, Mark has a glass container of plum jam, which is kind of half full. He seems to have maybe at least a cup, if not a little bit more of plum jam leftover, but you can tell from the way it's on the sides of the container, that it does seem a bit thinner than maybe what you intended. JS: Yeah, because the top of the jam was completely flat. SU: Yes. JS: And I think if it was cooked longer, it would have a more texture. SU: Chunky. JS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the jam is just one of those things that's like a recipe can only tell you so much, and then you have to cook it to your instinct. And looking at your jam, it does look like, perhaps, it was a little loose. It could have gone longer. So, I think you were very smart and had good baker instinct holding back on not using it all. And it looks like it cut clean. So, yeah, I would just enjoy the extra jam. But for those who haven't made it yet, when you're making the jam, it's almost like you have to cook it until it's dry enough, that when you drag a spatula through it, it kind of holds the streak for a second. SU: Oh, okay. JS: You know what I mean? SU: Yeah. JS: You're not making caramel, but it needs to have body. SU: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JS: Yeah. SU: Okay. Mark, essentially, you did amazing. Next time, reduce the compote a bit further. JS: Yeah, but I think your instincts were spot on. SU: Yes. And that top hat of your Karpatka looks so good. JS: No, yeah, it looks really good. SU: Okay. And while we're on the compotes, Meg reached out to say, "I feel so accomplished after making this. This is the plum side. The other half is peach compotes." JS: Oh, wow. SU: "They're both tasty, so I'm glad I didn't go back to the store, but I realized half my plums had gone bad. Really fun project. And my teenage son says this is his favorite Bake Club recipe to date." JS: Wow. SU: "Perfect for summer." JS: Okay. First of all, Meg, you're a real one. You've been with us forever. SU: Yes. JS: I think it's absolutely crazy cool that you have a half peach, half plum side. SU: I love that. And rather than swirling it all together, Meg really kept it two different sides. JS: I think, again, this is like your baker's instincts was spot on. Don't go to the store to get more. Just use what you have and make it work. And this was really smart. Also, your puff is good too. SU: Yeah, Meg's cake. Meg took it in a really beautiful light. It's very dramatic and the filling is so tall and beautiful looking. JS: It looks great. SU: Jesse, what other fruits do you think would work well? Taking Meg's example of using peaches instead of plums. JS: I'm trying to think of fruits that wouldn't work well. SU: Oh. JS: And it's harder. I think raspberries would be exceptional. SU: Yeah. JS: Any berry, to be honest, would be really impactful. Any stone fruit would be great. I don't know. What do you think? SU: I am inclined. A berry or a stone fruit, yes. JS: Those are the easiest ones, I feel like. SU: Those are the easiest. I don't think we would do something like a citrus. JS: That would take a little more work, I feel like. SU: Yeah. JS: Yeah. SU: Maybe a store-bought, like a citrus marmalade. JS: You could totally use that. SU: Maybe. JS: Yeah, or even a curd could probably be swirled in there. SU: Yeah. JS: Yeah. And I do think if you wanted to take a shortcut, just buy a jar of really nice jam, and that would totally work. SU: Okay. We have a question about choux pastry from Katie. Jesse, this actually was a question that came in from a Paris-Brest episode, and we didn't get to answer it then, but I think it's perfect timing now. And Katie writes to us saying, "When cooking the dough on the stove, I felt like my dough was done really fast. Is it possible to overcook at this point?" What do you think, Jesse? JS: I think that it does happen really fast, actually, or it can. I think you can overcook. I think that it's not likely. Some people treat it like more of an instinctual kind of thing, where it's like the recipe's written flexible with the amount of eggs to account for this exact issue, because sometimes your choux pre-eggs is drier. Sometimes it is more wet, and the eggs are supposed to account for that. So, mine doesn't give a range, but I think it'd be hard to overcook it, to be honest. SU: Yeah, it would probably burn before it's overcooked. JS: Yeah. And I feel like for the things we're using it for, it's going to be fine. SU: Okay, that makes sense. JS: Yeah, and it can happen fast. So, this makes sense, Katie, that you felt that this was rushed, because it can be. SU: Especially if your pot is whiter than what you maybe intended for. JS: Totally. SU: Okay. That's amazing. And now, we're moving on to the filling, Jesse, where we have two questions from Rachel L. She writes, "The plum jam is perfection. Made the Karpatka with some gorgeous plums that I got at the farmer's market. I will be making seasonal fruit riffs of this recipe in the future." "I ended up making the filling twice. The first time I tried to substitute the gelatin with three-quarter teaspoon of agar. However, the filling wasn't light and fluffy. It was liquid. Because it was late and I didn't have any more cream cheese, I ended up having to wrap my choux overnight to retry making the filling the next morning. The filling in the pictures was made with whipped cream folded into the whipped cream cheese mixture." "I have two questions," says Rachel. "Do you have any advice for working with agar or other gelatin substitutes?" And her second question is, "My choux looks a little gummy towards the center tip of the slice. It tasted great, but should I have mixed it longer after the final egg, or could it be because I let it sit overnight wrapped on the counter? Is it also possible to re-crisp the choux before assembly?" These are all fantastic questions, actually. JS: These are good. I'll start with the choux questions. They're a little easier. SU: Yeah. JS: I will say, can you re-crisp choux? Yes, famously so, a lot of times, bakeries and restaurants will do that. You can bake them, and then if you put them in a hot oven for a few minutes, they come right back to life. However, if your Karpatka is a little gummy towards the center, for me, that just indicates that it could have been baked longer. For the assembly here, because it's refrigerated with this filling, you want to really bake it, and choux can take it. It can be cooked, as we say every episode, bien cuit, just quite dark. So, don't be afraid to cook it until it's like a medium wood shade, not just golden brown, a touch darker, and then it's going to be more resilient and hold up to that refrigeration and filling. For the agar, I got to be real. I don't have so much experience with agar. It's a whole different beast. SU: Yeah. JS: Shilpa, do you have experienced the agar? SU: Not really. Not very much. I remember- JS: It's very like molecular gastronomy in my mind. SU: It is. It is. It's pliable ganache. JS: Pliable ganache, fluid gel, espuma. SU: Jesse and I are going to put that in a T-shirt, by the way. If you're willing to purchase it, let us know. JS: Yeah, please reach out to us. SU: No, I don't have much experience with agar. I just know it's- JS: It's fascinating. It holds up at any temperature, I know that. SU: Yes. JS: Yeah. SU: It is not thermoreversible, and it makes a very brittle set. JS: It's firm. Yeah, it's different. SU: And it's used a lot in the making of the fluid gels that we just mocked, because what agar can do is, after it sets it like a solid sort of jello brick, I want to say, then you can blend it, and it forms this nice sort of- JS: Glossy? SU: Yeah, a glossy- JS: Ketchup. SU: Ketchup consistency. It's like if jello was a sauce, and somehow held its shape. So, it's great for that, but unfortunately, I don't have experience working with it as a gelatin substitute. JS: Yeah. I know it is the go-to gelatin substitute, so it makes sense, but it's ... SU: Yeah. JS: Yeah, you'll have to tell us. Yeah. SU: I mean, I did like Rachel's solution where she ended up using whipped cream. JS: Yeah, it looks like it held up fine enough. Yeah, these are great questions. SU: Fantastic questions, Rachel. I'm sorry we don't have more experience on the agar, but if any of you are listening out there and you do have experience, you can always write them to us on our Substack. Okay. And a question about getting the swirls of compote, and this one is from Holly. Holly says, "Delicious. I was concerned about the choux pastry, but it puffed up in the oven nicely. I needed to remove it a few minutes early as it did get a little past golden brown. The cream cheese mixture seemed runny at first, but set overnight. The plum jam is yummy. We sampled it on toast too. I think I need help with the swirling part. Any suggestions? Maybe a little less jam as the filling looked more red and less ribboned. The choux pastry was tasty, and when combined with the cream cheese mixture, amazing." JS: I mean, the picture, it looks very nice. SU: Yeah. JS: And I think the color of the choux is what I want people to do, actually. SU: I agree with you. JS: Yeah, so a beautiful tan. Swirling, actually, I do have advice, and my advice is you have to have kind of restraint, dollop it in, and just barely drag it through. In fact, I'd rather you didn't drag your dollops versus swirling too much. If you swirl to the point where it looks how you want it to be, by the time you cut into and set, it's going to look overswirled. SU: It's too swirled. JS: Yeah, so just have a light hand. Yeah. SU: And you do advice doing it in stages, right? You say do a layer of the cheesecake, then do a layer of the plum. JS: Yes. SU: Do a little light swirl, then do more filling. JS: Yes. And since you're building a pan, what I like to do is take a spoon you don't care about, and bend it so it's- SU: Like at 90 degrees, like an L. JS: Yeah, like an L. And then I use that to assemble the inside, and it really helps. And you can bend it back, whatever. It's fine. SU: You can't. JS: It's a work spoon. I'm not paying for it. SU: It's a little freak of a spoon. JS: Save it for later. SU: It is very helpful in this application. JS: Yeah, you can use it for other things. SU: Yes. If you make a lot of layer cakes, you should definitely be bending your spoon into an L shape. JS: I agree. I agree. SU: Okay. And finally, from Christina, "What is the leftover situation for the cheesecake? Should I wait to make it until I have enough people to eat it all at once, or can it last in the fridge for a bit?" JS: It totally lasts. Yeah. I think since it's that we're leaning into the crisp/gone soggy of it all, I think that it will last for several days, and you're good. SU: Ooh, okay. Okay, perfect. And before we take a break, it's time for our new tradition. JS: Okay. SU: The Baker of the Month Award, in which you get nothing but a shoutout. Jesse, who gets the shoutout this month? JS: Okay. Listen, I know Mark, you didn't cook your jam far enough, but that top choux you got, that looks like a nasal cavity. It is giant, and I feel like you get the award because your choux is the wonkiest, the craziest. I love it. SU: Wonderful. JS: Yeah. Mark, you win. SU: Mark and your nasal cavity, Karpatka won our Baker of the Month Award. JS: We're having the wonkiest bake. You win. SU: Okay. We are going to take another break on that note. JS: And when we get back, we're going to introduce you to a baker we think you should know. SU: Welcome back to BA Bake Club. JS: And it is time to meet a baker that we think you should know, although she might already be a familiar face to many of you, if you are online, or if you watch the British Baking Show. SU: We have a lot of British Baking Show fans. JS: A lot of fans. SU: Ruby Bhogal survived the Bake Off tent. She was a finalist on season nine of the show, and she now has a very exciting, very beautiful book called Around the World in 80 Cakes. JS: So, Ruby, we are so excited to have you. Ruby Bhogal: Thank you so much for letting me gatecrash your podcast today. JS: No, not a crash. It is an enrichment. SU: Oh, God, enrichment is really lovely. RB: You're being too kind. SU: No, thank you for sending the book, Ruby. We both really love the book, and I love that there's such a nice variety of things in there. JS: Yeah. I'm curious what the inspiration was, because it sounds really difficult to write, honestly. SU: Yeah. RB: Yeah. I didn't make my life easy for myself when I started the second book. And in all honesty, the series started online, I can't believe I'm going to say this, three years ago, which is mind-boggling, because people have followed the journey from the very start and have now had kids who are three years old. And that honestly makes me, A, very happy, but B, also mortified that I've taken so long to make 80 cakes. JS: You can't think about it too much. RB: No. You know what? It's done, it's done now. It's fine. But I initially started the series as a bit of light relief. I had just finished writing my first book, and was looking for something to kind of reignite my baking mojo. I had poured every last bit of me into my first book, and I was talking to one of my friends, and she was like, "Oh, have you seen this list? This is the top 10 cakes in the world." And I was like, "Oh, this would be really fun just to try out on social media. No pressure, just having a little bit of fun with it and see what we can do." And then my brain was like, "Well, 10 doesn't sound really exciting, and 10 also sounds like I could do that in a weekend. Why not make it 80, because it's obviously a catchy title?" And honestly, when I first thought of that, "I thought this is going to be easy. I will get 80 cakes made in about a couple of months, seriously, we'll be done, and then I'll move on to something else." Lo and behold, it's taken me three years to make 80 cakes. And I've done my best to deep dive really quickly into the history of each cake and learn about the origins. And it's so much more than just my sassy quips that people normally see on Instagram. SU: What was the most challenging, or maybe unfamiliar, region of bakes that you tackled? RB: Honestly, all of it. Even the cakes that I'm familiar with, I think, especially in the UK, like our beloved Victoria Sponge and Lemon Drizzle, I really wanted to go above and beyond just what we normally get or what we normally know. I really wanted to understand the history about it, and learn a bit more about where it originated from, and the initial variations that people used to make of it. And that was quite hard. And people are very patriotic about their cakes, which has honestly been endearing, but also mind-boggling, because people get really upset if you don't make it how their nan has made it. And I think for me, in my book, I've tried to be respectful to tradition, but then also wanted to add my own tweak to it, my own kind of twist to a recipe, because otherwise then it's just me regurgitating a lot of stuff that already preexists. But it's been a really wild journey. I really have loved being able to explore different continents and different countries all from the comfort of my own kitchen, and really being able to showcase cakes from regions that really just don't get shown enough or people are aware of. For instance, there's this Fijian honey cake, which features in the book, which is stunning. It's so easy to make. It's a real distillation of that country in carb form, and I really love that. JS: Not to overaggrandize, but it's almost like you're kind of decolonizing baking education, because I feel it's so rooted in French technique, and that's "The proper thing we're taught." But it's like the world is huge. SU: Yeah. JS: Yes, and this is such a beautiful tone. SU: An encyclopedia. JS: Yeah, so I love what you're doing. RB: Thank you. JS: Okay. Taking it back to Karpatka. RB: Yeah. JS: So, you made a traditional one, and you liked it. And as a proud Polish person, I say thank you. But you also made a PB&J ones. So, I also riffed on Karpatka for this. So, I'm wondering where your riff, the inspiration came from. RB: I have wanted to make one for so long. Love choux pastry, think it was delicious, and then have seen iterations of it on social media for a very, very long time. Because I think the first time I made it, I just rippled through a rhubarb and strawberry compote in there. And it was so delicious, but people got so mad at me because, obviously, you can't beat tradition, you can't beat what's original. But honestly, I think you can in certain circumstances. And then the PB&J one was really just a bit of fun. It was just something where I wanted to bring classic flavors, or a classic flavor combination of a peanut butter and jelly, into something that is quite traditional. Choux pastry is such a wonderful vehicle for stuffing with lots of wonderful things. So, yeah. JS: I'm excited to try it. SU: Yeah, and I think it's brilliant. It's like PB&J, like a PB&J sandwich essentially. JS: How can you not like it? SU: Yeah. JS: Yeah. SU: I think it's great. We endorse, and I think that really governs a lot of stuff we do at Bake Club, which is we take- JS: Yeah, if you give credit and you honor it- SU: Yes. JS: ... yes, you can riff. SU: Yeah. Since we're in the Karpatka zone, Ruby, we have a listener question that Jesse's going to- JS: Sure. Yeah. So, this comes from a listener named Ashley, and she wrote, "I loved making this recipe. The Karpatka was stunning. One slight issue was the weather. It's been really hot lately, and it started to look a bit sad in the heat. I don't have air conditioning. Any tips to help deal with hot weather?" We thought you might be perfect, as I feel like everyone's like, "The tent, it's so hot." RB: And also, no one in the UK has air conditioning. Let's be real. That was a whole topic on social media over the summer. But especially, when it comes to something like choux pastry, I don't really feel like there is much movement for it, in terms of choux pastry is akin to something like a sponge. It loves moisture, and so the only way you can really keep choux pastry nice and crisp for a long time is to only fill it before you're about to eat it. So, maybe this is, you tackle it in a way of making smaller Karpatkas, or individual Karpatkas, where it's essentially just a filled choux bun. But another way you can maybe tackle that, in a not so traditional way, is by adding craquelin on top of there, which will kind of give the top of the choux pastry a bit more of a crunchy texture, which may work if you're eating it straight away, or you are eating it the same day. But then, alternatively, again, if you are going to be putting it in the fridge, once again, it will still soak up and locks that moisture. So, my tip would be maybe make smaller Karpatkas, or smaller choux buns, if that's what you want to do and keep them for a longer time period. And then before you're about to eat them, pop them back into the oven for about 5, 10 minutes, just to crisp up again, just on something low and slow, just to help draw out any of that excess moisture. But choux pastry is choux pastry. How you've got anything left over once you've made it is beyond me, because that stuff goes within a blink of an eye. JS: I like the idea of making tiny Karpatkas too, because then you just eat it before the filling will melt too if it's crazy hot. SU: Yeah, that's true. RB: Absolutely. JS: And I wonder if you could use a little muffin tin and make little baby ones. SU: That would be so cute. RB: That would be so cute. JS: Yeah. SU: That is cute. JS: I've never tried. SU: Thanks, Ruby. That was actually a very helpful tip. JS: I want to make little baby ones now. RB: I know, me too. SU: Okay. Now, we're going to talk about Bake Off stuff, which I'm sure a lot of listeners want to hear about. And we want to know what the experience taught you about yourself. RB: Oh, I mean, what a phenomenal experience, particularly, as I'd only started baking, I'd say a year before I got in the tent. I honestly applied, I remember filling out the application form in a very jokey manner. It was like I was having a conversation. It's also a very rigorous application to get into Bake Off. So, if you're not serious about baking, you'll get found out pretty quickly. But I had just gone through a period of unemployment. I was like 28 years old, 30 was on the horizon, started to have a bit of a mild panic about that. Spoiler alert folks, she did not find a job. She was unemployed for about 12 months. And then, for some reason, and I don't know why, because neither my mom or my dad bakes, but there was a baking book on the shelf. And I hate to credit him with this, but it was a Paul Hollywood book. I would never say this to his face, but it did teach me the foundations of baking. And I literally baked my way from my unemployment. I tackled everything from making croissants to attempted sourdough very terribly, but I did everything just to wow my days away because I had so much time. It would make me feel good that I was actually doing something useful. Fell into a job, and then I remember seeing the Bake Off audition, the bit of fun that I had with the application form turned quite serious when then they called me up and was like, "Oh, loved your application. Just got a few questions for you." And I was like, "Great. I literally know nothing about baking. How am I going to get through these questions?" And then they were asking me these questions, and every time they'd ask me something, I'd be like, "Oh, I'm really sorry. My phone line has gone so bad." Put them on mute, and I was furiously typing away on Google like, "Oh my God, please help me. What is this? What are they talking to me about?" Sorry, Bake Off if you hear this, but yes, I did cheat my way for the- JS: Fraud. RB: Loud and proud, can I just say? And then next thing I know, I was in the tent with people who had been baking since they were five, or been baking with their granny all their life. And everyone was like, "Oh, so how long have you been baking for?" And I was like, "About a year." But I think my inexperience actually really helped me in the tent because I had no expectation. I had none of this. I want to get to halfway point, or I want to get to the final, or I want to win. I was like, "I'm just counting my lucky stars that I made it into the tent." So, it was wonderful. I've made some incredible friends from there. I've had an incredible experience, and it's given me such a wonderful, joyful platform, that it will always be one of my most cherished memories, I think. JS: Are you still in touch with your fellow bakers? RB: There's one in particular who, no matter what I do, I just can't get rid of him. This guy is invited to my family weddings. He came to my cousin's wedding. He baked a cake for my own wedding. He's my best friend, and I couldn't see my life without him. Antony, he was only in the tent for about three weeks, but we bonded from the minute that we first met. Very, very grateful for that. JS: I'm like, "Damn, I need to fill out an application." SU: I know. RB: It's an incredible experience. SU: Is it safe to say that Paul Hollywood doesn't get invited to any family weddings? RB: Oh, absolutely not. That guy will be lucky if he gets a hello here and there. JS: Damn. SU: Okay. We'll move on to a rapid fire question. JS: Yeah. Are you down to answer some? RB: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Let's go for it. JS: What are you bringing to a bake sale? RB: Oh God, this is like asking someone who their favorite child is. This is terrible. Chocolate cake, something like my Brooklyn Blackout from my book. JS: Crowd pleaser, yeah. SU: Yeah. Who do you call in a baking emergency? RB: My friend Antony, for sure. I mean, very rarely will he give me good advice, but he will calm me down. JS: That's me for Shilpa. RB: Yeah. SU: That's both of us. JS: What do you think the best baking smell is? RB: Oh God, laminated pastry, for sure. It's just that waft of butter in the kitchen that really just gets me every single time. Just nothing but butter. Fantastic. SU: Do you have a motto or words that you live by in the kitchen? RB: What's the worst that can happen? JS: Fair enough. Yeah. RB: Literally, every time I have a disaster in the kitchen, I take it as a lesson and a step closer to perfecting something that I wanted to. So, yeah, definitely that. JS: I like that. SU: A great lesson for life. What is the best compliment you've ever received on something you've baked? RB: I remember on Bake Off, everyone would strive for getting a Hollywood handshake, or some praise from Paul, but for me, Prue was a tough cookie to crack. And there was one cake that I made, and she said that she wanted the recipe for it afterwards, and then she came up to me afterwards and said, "Please send that to me." And that for me was a huge compliment. Someone who I've admired in the food industry, she's a strong, fierce woman, who's really made a name for herself in the food industry. And so, to get a compliment like that so early on in what I didn't know then was my baking career was phenomenal. JS: That's a good one. SU: Did you send her the recipe? RB: Well, I sent it on to the production company, so whether she got it or not- JS: Who's going to say? RB: I don't know. But you know what? I did my bit, girl. SU: Yeah, yeah. You certainly did. Okay, that's the end of our rapid fire. Ruby, we really loved having you. JS: Yeah, thank you so much. RB: Thank you. SU: This was such a good conversation. JS: Where can our listeners find you if they want to follow you? RB: You can find me on Instagram and TikTok @rubybhogal, where you can keep up to date with the latest cakes. Hopefully, by the time you hear this, I've finished the cake series, but you never know. We could have another three years in it. Or you can also grab a copy of my new book, which will be out in the States towards the end of September at your local bookstore, on Amazon, at Barnes & Nobles, or your local independent. JS: Beautiful. Thank you so much. SU: Thank you. RB: Thank you. Thank you so much for your time today. JS: That's it for this month's edition of BA Bake Club. Shilpa, do you want to tell our bakers about the September Bake Club recipe? SU: Okay. September's Bake Club recipe is probably the one recipe that we're not actually baking. JS: Oh. SU: September's recipe is for glazed apple pie fritters, because I'm thinking of state fair fritters, and I've never been to a state fair, and I've always wanted to go to one. JS: They're fun. SU: Oh my God, I'm so jealous that you've been to one. How many have you been to state fairs? JS: A handful. SU: Oh my God. JS: Yeah. SU: Anyway, I've always been thinking about these state fair fritters and how they have these big chunks of fruit in them, and I wanted that same sort of chunkiness, but in the texture of a cider donut that you get at the farm stand. JS: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. SU: So, this is my version of that. JS: I can attest to their deliciousness. And is there any special equipment or ingredients that bakers should have on hand? SU: Ingredients, I would say get some nice ricotta. I generally like the ones that are in a tin with some holes. JS: Oh, with a big bulbous top? SU: Yeah. JS: Yeah. SU: Can I just name the brand? JS: Yeah, sure. SU: It's Calabro. Calabro has the best ricotta that I had. JS: Yeah, sure, sure, sure. SU: So, that's as far as ingredients go. Get yourself some nice apples. Jesse and I are very partial to Honeycrisp apples, after a few failed attempts with Granny Smith, and you should be good. JS: Yeah. SU: Yeah. JS: Cool. Well, Bake Clubbers, once you bake through the fritters, send us your pictures and questions. There are so many different ways to get in touch. SU: You can comment on the recipe on the Epicurious app, or on the Bon Appétit website. You can comment on our Substack, or you could email us at [email protected]. And if you've made it and loved it, please rate and review the recipe on our site. JS: Or you can tell a friend. If you have a buddy that should be in the Bake Club, share this episode. SU: Oh, good. Are we buddies, Jesse? JS: Oh, baking buddies. We got a package sent to us that said Shilpa and Jesse today. SU: I know. That was our first joint package. JS: Yeah. SU: I'm so touched. JS: Okay. Well, we're your hosts, Jesse Szewczyk. SU: And Shilpa Uskokovic. JS: This month's episode was produced by Emily Elias. SU: Pran Bandi is our studio engineer, and we had editing by Rhiannon Corby. JS: Research editing by Ryan Harrington. SU: This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound. JS: If you like this show, leave us a rating and review, and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode. SU: And if you're not already part of the club, head to bonappetit.com/bakeclub to find all the information you need to join. JS: Thanks for listening to BA Bake Club, and we'll see you next month.