Stephen Grosz On Love And Psychoanalysis

Stephen is a psychoanalyst and author. He used to teach clinical technique at the Institute of Psychoanalysis, and also psychoanalytic theory at University College London. He’s the author of The Examined Life: How We Lose and Find Ourselves, and his latest book is Love’s Labor: How We Break and Make the Bonds of Love. An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of the episode — on what psychoanalysis is really for, and the benefits of friendship vs romantic love — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: born in Gary, Indiana; his birth defect requiring many surgeries; his Jewish family emigrating from Eastern Europe; college at Berkeley and Oxford; arrested at the Chicago Dem convention; befriending Anna Freud; Sigmund and his studies in hysteria; loneliness in adolescence; how falling in love is very different than love; my own psychoanalyst of 25 years; trauma from my childhood; the losses that marriage entails; breakthroughs after breakdowns; detaching from the idea of yourself; legal marriages vs psychological ones; falling back into trauma because it’s familiar; the power of love’s precarity; victimology; Philip Roth’s “the ecstasy of sanctimony”; lessons from Othello; surrender vs submission; Esther Perel’s Mating in Captivity; seeking traits in a partner that mirror a dysfunctional parent; how sex is different for men and women; gay promiscuity; male-male marriages lasting the longest; HIV and the threat of deportation; dating with HIV in the ‘90s; and how to be a better listener. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: David Thomson on cinema in US history and culture, John O’Sullivan on conservatism, Robby George on natural law, and Megan McArdle on pretty much anything. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com. A new subscriber just paid for the Dish because “I wanted to listen to John Gray again — merci beaucoup.” Another fan: John Gray has been a cultural hero of mine ever since he debunked the myth that “globalization” was inevitable. Great to hear him and you together. Here’s a dissent from a “longtime subscriber”: I just finished to your conversation with John Gray, and I was a bit frustrated to be honest. The two of you started off beautifully on the topic of “Trump’s New World Disorder,” and I loved his analysis of the “Joker-esque” nature of Trump’s regime, the futility of the Iran War, and the comparisons with Putin and Russian history. So I was glued to the analysis of American politics — a fascinatingly brilliant exchange. Then, at 29:48, you shunted into British politics, and from there until almost the end of the podcast, I was in the woods. I have to admit, I have no direct interest in the minutia of British politics. Both of you have an understandably intense knowledge and interest in that subject, but forgive me if I say I was bored and more than a little put off. Maybe you should avoid building up our expectations by adding “… And Other Topics” to your stated focus in the headline? That’s why we add “Other topics” to every pod description. And British politics is in a particularly fevered state right now, with some real echoes of the US. Another writes, “Greetings, and Happy Fourth from a longtime listener and reader”: I started following you during 9/11 and never stopped. You’ve been a guiding light for me through coming out as a gay man, marrying a nice Jewish boy, and now, decades later, debating politics with our rising college senior. I thought John Gray, as a student of Russian history, and you, as someone who enjoys personal histories, might be interested to hear that, thankfully, not all of the Russian “Former People” he mentioned were killed off. In fact, one was my grandmother! “Granny” was born Baroness Catherine Tiepolt in St. Petersburg. Her father, Nicholas Apollonovich, was a major-general in the Navy, head of the Port of St. Petersburg before the October Revolution, and earlier in his career the resident librarian at Peterhof Palace. He was an expert in heraldry, and his collection of medals and medallions is now in the Russian Artillery Museum. Her grandfather, Sergei Paltov, was a naval admiral who died on his balcony overlooking Mariinsky Square after seeing his Kronstadt sailors marching with red handkerchiefs during the July Days, before the revolution. Here are the Tiepolts circa 1911 (Granny on the lower left): When the revolution hit, Granny was 13. Not surprisingly, the family was targeted by the Bolsheviks, my great-grandfather was jailed, and she and her mother were reduced to selling the few possessions they had left on the street. Somehow they survived the Red Terror, the famine, and the Civil War. Her father was, mysteriously, released from prison, and, due to a short-lived treaty with Latvia where they had relatives, they were allowed to leave Russia in the early ’20s — albeit with only one of their four children. They settled first in Paris, then Paraguay, and finally the United States. Although Granny bore the mental scars of these events, she nevertheless thrived in America, raised three sons, pursued a variety of artistic and creative endeavors, and listened faithfully to Red Sox games. Here she is in 1987 with five of her d’Arbeloff grandchildren: Perhaps this history is part of why I’m drawn to your love of debate, your appreciation for nuance, and your distaste for extremism. Granny’s family is now almost 50 descendants strong, with a fourth generation just starting. I hope they are blessed with some semblance of the stability we have enjoyed in our lifetimes. Dish readers, I tell you. Thanks so much for that story. Another writes, “Happy Fourth, you guys”: Just want to send a quick note of gratitude for the amazing work you do at the Dish. Your World Cup essay was a real tonic for all the BS we have to wade through as consumers of news. And last week’s essay on the Dems is good prep work for me, as I’ll be spending a week at the beach next week with family members, most of whom are decidedly on the left. The good news is, we can have political conversations without anyone getting butt-hurt. Keep that liberalism flame burning, Andrew and Chris! You guys are the best! Next week we will run dissents on the Dems piece. One more email this week: I don’t think I can thank you enough for your World Cup piece. I have sent it out time and again. You nailed it in a way no one has. I have been reading you since your New Republic days, and I will follow you till, and they say, “the last dog dies.” I simply cannot do without reading your stuff, cursing you, praising you, and everything in between. I have been a very devout Catholic until Covid. Something about that disruption combined with our bishop in Idaho set me off. Every time I find a church I can live with, they move or retire the priest. But you and the Pope give me hope. I will eventually go back. God bless you, Andrew. See you next Friday, when the full Dish returns. Truman is enjoying the extra walks this week, even though dad got his familiar week-off bronchitis: